Curse

GodofAcid · Jun 21, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

VOtekick will get abused, teams of "kurzicks entering on a luxon invite, sabotaging players from the luxon side to give wins to kurzicks. Nah can't do.

Leechers are a very difficult problem, like "(rage)quitting" in RA.

Yes, I know, and that's what I meant.. but it's still a better option than having 2 or 3 leechers cost an entire team a match, and knowing they get their faction either way. Something should be done about this, and that's the best idea I can come up with. Votekick gets abused by some bad apples in any game, but ya know what, it's better than having no option at all. I speak from experience on that. If anyone has better ideas, feel free to share them. Taking away faction for losing will cause another uproar because people will yet again be slowed in gaining their titles. Keep that in mind.

And I hope this discussion doesn't take away from the fact that the spam initiative was nothing but a great thing for this game. Anet deserves credit for that, and I'll give credit where it's due. That was a problem I didn't think I'd ever see addressed.

Destro Maniak · Jun 21, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I don't recall A-net ever saying that leeching was ok and not punishable. One difference between the two things for better or worse, however, is that it's easier to catch spammers than leechers. How do you know that some emergency didn't just pop up after someone entered a battle? When you see someone spam in chat, you know they did it on purpose.

First I agree you but anet doesnt care people hardware problem cause once some guys account stolen buy a malware and they told him that we should be responsible(they gave his account after a week or two).

Second if its only a hardware problem the guy would dissconnect everytime cause those leechers are allways entering another party and continue leeching. And they do absulutely nothing. They absulutely nothing to people scam. They absulutely do nothing to bots. They absulutely do nothing to leeching. They absulutely do nothing to people buying gold(I know this cause once in allience chat someone talked alot about this and some people bought gold with him and they werent banned or anything.)

Rusty Deth · Jun 21, 2007, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Besides the leechers I've been noticing alot of people getting disconnected before the battle begins. Sabatage? I dunno, but with those and adding in the leechers doing FA has become a waste of time.

I'm glad they added faction rewards for kills in pve. Maybe this was a way to gives those who want faction, but don't want to deal with the bs of AB and FA, another choice.

I made my choice, I go out wit a full party and get more faction then before and have less headaches from all the abuse thats been going on since its creation.

Engel the Fallen · Jun 21, 2007, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Man the suggestion to define leeching by skills used will really all the kids who just c space 1 through the game...

On the US servers during the day leeching is not so much of a problem as early dropping.

The people who mid match that leech most of the time will talk, and just stop trying due to inept teams. Like breaking down the green in on the Kurizick side then seeing none of your team try to enter and instead almost all be off trying to kill the other team instead of winning. Or in AvA when your team does not understand capping at all.

It is more of a salvage the time you wasted because your group sucked thing, rather than just enter and walk away.

Rocky Raccoon · Jun 21, 2007, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Spamming is easy to see and react to, but leeching is a little more difficult. I think if a player has not moved for a specified amount of time that player gets no reward at the end. It would also be nice if an NPC of the same type takes the place of the leeching player and follows the group leader. I know the first suggestion is the easier of the 2, but the second would at least give you a full team.

D8tura · Jun 21, 2007, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by NekoZ

Maybe instead of banning people, just throw in a code that kicks inactive people after they don't move for 2 minutes or so. Then temp ban repeat offenders.

i agree but move the time up - people get important phone calls, the washer floods, anything can happen

Servant of Kali · Jun 21, 2007, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Gaile, if you're reading this, can you suggest to the staff the following thing, which proved effective with WTB WTS spam.

So, all im asking is that ANet *addresses* the issue of leeching. On a login screen (similiar to current WTB WTS spam warning) state that leeching is a problem and will result in a ban.

Even without banning anyone at all, even without doing absolutely anything else, i assure you that the number of leechers will drop a lot.

Yes, intimidation works. As you can see, this approach doesn't require ANet resources spent, it doesn't require programming efforts, it doesn't require absolutely anything else. Actually, even to stop people from reporting leeching if you dont intend to actually ban then, you could word the warning message like this:

"Starting missions for the sole purpose of standing idle and thus receiving the benefits earned by others, commonly known as "leeching", is hereby forbidden, and will result in a short temporary ban. Repeated frequent leeching, which practically does not differ from botting, may result in a permanent ban. Players who have to go AFK for a few minutes will not be affected, laggers will not be affected, while players who have to go AFK for a longer period of time are advised to exit mission area since they are in no way contributing to the team in the first place. Leechers are not to be reported in the same way as other offenders are, because they are monitored in a more direct ways to avoid mistakes.

Coridan · Jun 21, 2007, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Take out the "team rewards" and only reward players that are "nearby" for enemy kills or whatever distance sounds good. Give a team (group of 4) points when one of thier members capture a control point. Do away with the xxx points even if you lose...let it be only points that you earned...

Servant of Kali · Jun 21, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by serenitude

Around 3 weeks ago, I got a call that my mother-in-law had a stroke and was in ICU, in mid-game. The phone call lasted about 30 minutes..
/unsigned

Wait, did your mother-in-law have a stroke, or you? What exactly prevented you from exiting the mission area or closing down GW?

Or, if you were in a state of shock, wouldn't 3day ban help you to get to your senses? I mean, if you're in a state of shock and cannot play GW, im sure you won't even notice 3day ban.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

All is says is that Support cannot handle reports of leeching. It's true that we weren't, and still aren't, taking action, but I still think that at some point we might.

Gaile, trust me, when people see your login window msg that "spamming results in ban", over 50% of them will stop spamming even if they did not hear anyone being banned. Why? Because people have too much stuff on their characters to be able to afford ban. And those who don't they don't really leech.

So anyway, my point is that taking a firm stance (like with spam), the problem will solve quite a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coridan

Take out the "team rewards" and only reward players that are "nearby" for enemy kills or whatever distance sounds good.

I am strongly against artificial solutions such as these, because they simply don't work. What if im a monk bonder on purple and my whole team is killing on orange? Basically, i get no rewards, even though im doing 50% of the work.

The first step for leeching is ***addressing*** the issue. And stop listening to leechers in this thread. Just look how many people fear anti-leeching methods in this thread. Why? Yea i wonder why, really. Sometimes i go afk for 2min, yet i don't have a fear. Why do they fear then?

GodofAcid · Jun 21, 2007, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Ya know what, he's right. Just the notice about spamming has shifted about 95% of people to the trade channel. I've said this about other games in the past, but the threat of consequences is a deterrent in itself. This proves it. I still think there need to be consequences instituted to make sure that any rule is taken seriously, but just a threat of consequences will have more of an impact than most people think. Those trade spammers didn't need to sit around and make sure people were being held responsible. When the message being sent is that nobody is watching, the inmates run the asylum. Something as simple as saying "We're watching" changes everything.

Fril Estelin · Jun 21, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

to the OP: how do you define leeching? (I'm personally interested and the question is also rethoric since I think this is not as easy at it seems to define)

bhavv · Jun 21, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Wombat

1 - If a person is afk in a PvP instance for 3 minutes or more (for longer matchers like AB/FA/etc.), they are kicked out into the lobby of that area and are not allowed to join another match again for ~5 minutes. Anyone who winds up scripting something that uses a skill/skill combination at regular intervals without moving can be banned for botting.

2 - If a player leaves a PvP instance before the round is over, they won't be able to join another PvP instance for a set period of time. This, of course, can scale so that people leaving from those never-ending RA battles won't be punished nearly as heavily as those who leave before the round even starts.

1) Bad idea. I can get lag spikes where I cant move or press any skill buttons for over 5 minutes at a time, so I should get penalised because either my internet connection or Anets servers bugger up?

How to fix leeching - Play with a guild group or with your friends.

2) So if you go into RA and get a team of four monks / four mesmers, or if someone else rage quits first, you should be penalised?

These are stupidly lame suggestions to be added to the game. Right now, RA is the only thing left in the game that im playing and enjoy. Yes I do rage quit, if I end up in a group I doubt is going to have any chance of scoring a 10 win victory.

Yesterday I tried a new approach, I would stay for the first full round regardless of whether or not we won. I would leave after winning if the team did not have a monk, giving them the chance to get one, or would leave if our group was clearly losing (e.g. no one using res signets). However, this takes too much time when I am trying to grind 6 more glads for Glad rank 3.

DarkGanni · Jun 21, 2007, 12:58 PM // 12:58

In a first person shooter I play there's this system where players take damage for camping, was wondering if something similar could be done,for example a player being kicked out of the game when inactive for more than 3 mins during an AB match or the missions like aspenwood/jade quarry, your thoughts about it.

- Ganni

Servant of Kali · Jun 21, 2007, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Just a bit of a note: Please stay on-topic. It's pointless to debate 10 issues in one thread because it reduces the chance of any of em being solved. Quitting , griefing etc belongs to another thread. Artificial solutions to leeching belong to another thread. Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

to the OP: how do you define leeching? (I'm personally interested and the question is also rethoric since I think this is not as easy at it seems to define)

I already defined it in the above post

I'll repeat though:
Leeching: "Starting missions for the sole purpose/intention of standing idle and thus receiving the benefits earned by others".

Please note: running around and doing nothing is not leeching. It can be griefing, yes, but it's not how i would define leeching. I don't think we should go to very broad definitions of leeching at this point. If we get rid of the most narrow aspect, we've done a lot. The main point of leeching is that you're roleplaying a bot. You press Enter Mission and go afk or do a macro which does the same. Essentially, you're a bot. You don't do anything yourself, yet you reap the benefits.

Free Runner · Jun 21, 2007, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

How to fix leeching - Play with a guild group or with your friends

I'm sorry but no.

Do you know what Fort Aspenwood is? what Alliance Battles are? these are the places leeching affects most. How exactly do you play with a guild group or your friends in a CM that takes 8 people selected at random? how do you make sure that the other teams in AB take full guild groups?

Taking a full guild group or friends may work in PvE missions but it isnt going to solve everything leeching affects.

Leeching needs to be taken a look at instead of being tossed aside as something " unsportsmanlike,irritating but deal with it".

Gawa · Jun 21, 2007, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Hi guys, i had a thought about an auto-AFK addition to the game (which im sure is old hat, but i cant find the old suggestion thread) and wondered if it could then also maybe go some way towards helping the leeching problem that you are facing?

Feel free to add comments and/or agreement/disagreement of the idea itself on the thread.

Auto-AFK after x mins (possible solution to leechers?)

Basically if there are no inputs from you after x mins (say 1 or 2 mins) then you are flagged as 'away' in your status.
When you input again, you are auto flagged back to 'online'.

Using this concept and tweaking the faction gained (in fact you could do it with exp and gold and all rewards as well...) so that reward gained simply adds a condition to the code argument -

IF 'status = away' THEN 'reward' = zero

Its less of an aggressive method ie wont kick/ban etc, but remove the incentive to leech..?
Cheers

WildmouseX · Jun 21, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Hmmm... could you show it to me, please? To my very best knowledge, I've never said that leeching is "ok" or that "we don't see a problem with it," because that is not something that I think, and it's not something that ArenaNet thinks, either. We don't like it at all. It's difficult to combat though, and we don't feel that player reports is a good system for doing so, because it would be difficult if not impossible to verify or it would take a lot of time to catch just one person.

I'm more than willing to listen to your ideas about how to combat leeching and AFKing. I've been told that "vote to kick" has been rejected by the designers, and "remove after X time without movement" was considered ineffective because the worst offenders obviously bot a lot of processes, including movement, when they're not there. Also, the real life issues mentioned above could bring action on a person who had no intention of leeching or going AFK at all.

In the recent weekend, the rewards system was changed. Do you think that's an effective anti-leeching measure? Do you have other suggestions?

one of the common problems with leachers in missions, is that the group can't resign as long as the leacher doesn't.... ending a mission if everyone but one player enters resign, will allow the groups to end the mission, kick a leacher, and pick up someone new.

allowing a group to resign when a leacher still refuse's too, should take care of it everywhere it happens in PvE missions... apsenwood and AB are the only places that would still be bad with them, if kick voteing is out of the question, then a no faction voteing is about the only other idea i think could have an impact in these area's.

GodofAcid · Jun 21, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

You shouldn't be criticizing anyone's ideas when this is your solution:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

How to fix leeching - Play with a guild group or with your friends.

If you have something real to contribute, then go ahead, but until you do, I don't see what gives you the right to call anyone else's ideas stupid. At least most of the other people here are actually trying to contribute to a solution.

TheRaven · Jun 21, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Personally, I want a votekick option. If implemented correctly it would not be possible to overabuse. However, Gaile has already said that idea is off the table.

So how about this? If a player is idle (no movement and no skills used) for X minutes in AB/JQ/FA they are kicked back to the lobby area and their accumulated Balt/Kurzick/Luxon faction is reset to 0. (Not the title, just the unspent faction in the first Hero window.) I think this is fair. No need for bans. Bans are overkill for something like this anyways. Just remove the rewards for bad behavior.

I don't know how hard this would be to code into the system. If it isn't too difficult it sounds like it could be the ideal solution. No need to pay an extra employee to monitor the battles. It's all automated.

Now for the rebuttals:
1. "No fair! What if I have an emergency!?" - This isn't a ban. All you lose is what you would have gained from the battle. Perhaps instead of wiping Balt faction, the penalty is instead -5,000 Balt faction. That way someone with a lot of accumulated faction saved up wouldn't be tremendously hurt. If you have a true emergency you can exit the game quickly and deal with the problem. If the problem is soo severe that you have no time to exit then losing faction should be the least of your concerns.

2. "No fair!! I was lagging and couldn't do anything!!" Ok, from my perspective as a fellow teammate, laggers ruin my team just as much as leechers. If your connection is so bad that you are always lagging then you should really think about upgrading your PC/Connection before trying to participate in PvP activities.

3. "You're just gonna turn people away from the game with unnecessary punishments, you Nazi!" - Actually leechers have driven away a lot of players from AB and FA. If we solve the leecher issue, some players will return to these areas.

Patrick Smit · Jun 21, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

about the auto kick, i do not agree, at least for certainly not in PvE environment. He my heroes and henchies can wait, they even seem to like it, ebing able to do their own thing.

Lag spikes can be pretty serious, i never have it very long, but it can go over a minute.

How to solve it? Rate people? SO they dont get access in groups. That works only for AB, RA and FA are solo access, so no option, then a human cop only remains. And who is gonna check him for powerabuse? I think they are and remain a problem. In missions u can turn back and dump the guy, In AB u dump em after the battle, RA and FA are just lost cases, enter try again.